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walford

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PostSubject: Ephriam has summoned me   Tue Jul 29, 2008 12:25 pm

king_srqt and I have been exchanging messages on the old CN forums...

http://z15.invisionfree.com/Cyber_Nations

...and he mentioned that Ephriam Grey wanted to contact me. Even though your light colored text on a dark background is wearying upon my tired old eyes, I would prefer that this dialog take place on a message board rather than IRC or IM, because I want it to be in the open.

What say you, Ephriam?
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Wad of Lint
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PostSubject: Re: Ephriam has summoned me   Tue Jul 29, 2008 1:01 pm

Valkan, Myself, and Pheo were looking to contact you. Not in any capacity serving an alliance, for personal interests. Could you contact me through email, AIM, or some other form?

-Lint
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Ephriam Grey

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PostSubject: Re: Ephriam has summoned me   Tue Jul 29, 2008 1:03 pm

what is going on here?

I'm always out of the loop. Sad(

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Valkan

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PostSubject: Re: Ephriam has summoned me   Tue Jul 29, 2008 1:06 pm

Although I have never met you, I was wondering if you could write an autobiography? I'm very intrigued as to what your goals were, how you went about achieving them and just your general thoughts on CN and it's players/values ect?
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walford

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PostSubject: Re: Ephriam has summoned me   Tue Jul 29, 2008 1:48 pm

LintWad wrote:
Valkan, Myself, and Pheo were looking to contact you. Not in any capacity serving an alliance, for personal interests. Could you contact me through email, AIM, or some other form?

-Lint
I will only communicate with those who belong to a group that has unjustifiably done me and mine considerable harm in the open. Say what you have to say and ask what you want to ask here.

Valkan wrote:
Although I have never met you, I was wondering if you could write an autobiography? I'm very intrigued as to what your goals were, how you went about achieving them and just your general thoughts on CN and it's players/values ect?
For those of you who have accounts on the old CN forums, my post history is available for review:
http://z15.invisionfree.com/Cyber_Nations/index.php?act=Search&CODE=getalluser&mid=5452

My history with respect to Andromeda is explored at length here:
http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=16414

I discussed my goals here:
http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=20155

My history in CyberNations is well-documented; I did what I did and said what I said for good reason and have nothing to apologize for.

What is not so well-documented are the reasons for the unprovoked atrocities committed by Ephriam Grey and Co that have led to me being forced to delete my 650+ day-old nation and the majority of my allies being driven from the game altogether.
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Valkan

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PostSubject: Re: Ephriam has summoned me   Tue Jul 29, 2008 1:53 pm

Why is it that you will only speak to those that have done you harm in private? Anyway, thanks for all the links.
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Ephriam Grey

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PostSubject: Re: Ephriam has summoned me   Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:11 am

he siad he will only talk in the open with people he has been done harm by, not in private.

again, what is going on here and what is the point?

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PostSubject: Re: Ephriam has summoned me   Thu Jul 31, 2008 1:44 am

Walford, in a way I am sorry. I do not regret the fight and I feel our cause was justified from what we had seen, but I regret how things went down and I admit that my alliance and I could have executed things better. I had wanted, really, one last chance to speak with you privately but if you will not give me that, so be it.
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Wad of Lint
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PostSubject: Re: Ephriam has summoned me   Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:39 am

Walford, I will be reading over that information, and should I still have questions I will attempt yet again to contact you. Whether or not you choose to respond, is entirely up to you. I am just trying to get an objective view together of all the events surrounding your time spent on CN.

Thanks,
Lint
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walford

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PostSubject: Re: Ephriam has summoned me   Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:48 pm

Ephriam Grey wrote:
Walford, in a way I am sorry. I do not regret the fight and I feel our cause was justified from what we had seen, but I regret how things went down and I admit that my alliance and I could have executed things better. I had wanted, really, one last chance to speak with you privately but if you will not give me that, so be it.
Spare me. Any IM or IRC convo will be selectively screen-shotted and posted here and there anyway, so why not do it here where everyone can see the entire conversation w/o editing?

Your cause was to make the world safe for fascist thugs and to force others to play the game the way you want. All you have succeeded in doing is creating enemies where you previously had none.

When you originally sent your three poorly trained doofuses to attack me, I'd never heard of you before. When they were having too much trouble with me because I was getting 1/3 of the aid that they were, you then decided that you were acting on behest of VE, but the nations that attacked me had as their reasons for declaring as "Ephie's wrath" and the like.

Your reasons for declaring upon the League of Free Nations were based upon half-truths and outright lies. Your casus belli was thoroughly debunked here:
http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=24024

You used moles who posed as diplomats who were interested in signing on to our Charter to infiltrate us and post out-of-context screenshots to suit an agenda of irrational hatred and lust for power. The LoFN was created to provide for free association and for armed forces to be used for defense only.

That is what you set out to destroy. I honestly have no idea why anyone would not be ashamed to be asociated with you. Perhaps you keep them ignorant with your propaganda.

I am among many others who know better.
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walford

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PostSubject: Re: Ephriam has summoned me   Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:09 pm

Please note that this conversation is being screen-shotted as it goes on, so let's not have any creative editing or photo-shopping, mkay?

http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif
http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif
http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif
http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif
http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif
http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif
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PostSubject: Re: Ephriam has summoned me   Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:21 am

Classic Walford, :p
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PostSubject: Re: Ephriam has summoned me   Sat Aug 02, 2008 5:38 pm

This sucks. Good Luck Walford.
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walford

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PostSubject: Re: Ephriam has summoned me   Wed Aug 06, 2008 12:48 am

I just wanted to make a comment about this thread from Doitzel -- apparently he didn't like the direction that CN was taking and NPO's role in creating this paradigm, so he attempted to arrest this process in a coup. He failed and has been driven from the game:
http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=29956&st=0

Doitzel wrote:
...The rest of the points I could make, including the collective despair over how "boring" things have gotten, the ridiculous number of alliances there are, the absolute insanity of the treaty web, the immorality of perma-ZI, etc. has all been beaten to death in any number of other threads. I think a lot of us know the truths about these things but almost all of us cave to the prevailing opinion of the NPO for the aforementioned reason of "might makes right".

None of these things will ever change. Ever. Why? Because it is collective responsibility, not something that is laid upon the shoulders of any single alliance or any single person. It is the same basic principle of why a crowd of people watching a woman getting murdered will not call emergency services. It is the same as that viral video where the man gets hit by a car and traffic just swerves around him while onlookers from the sidewalk just stare, or keep walking. Each and every one of you is required to take initiative yet each and every one of you is afraid to be the first, or the only, to do so. Instead you look to others to do something about the ills that plague us all while thinking inward about your own security, tying a black and blue noose around your neck.

And this is where I have gone wrong so many times. I have placed faith where I had no reason to place any: in the masses. There are too few willing to take risks in the name of justice. I can understand why, given my present situation, but that does not make it any better...
Some of us were doing something, but your alliance and their allies were party to crush it. We were made an example of what happens to those who would dare to operate outside of the system that includes double-standards with respect to nukes, frivolous reasons for declaring war, collective punishment, disproportionate response, driving people from the game merely for asserting their right to free speech and free association, etc.

This is what you have fought against.

The next time you find difficulty getting/keeping trades, lament the deterioration of role-play or the stagnation that exists on Planet Bob, look to your own leadership because they are to blame.

History is not necessarily a progressive process; civilizations have collapsed, then what followed were long periods of darkness wherein bands of thugs held sway and any sort of improvement or innovation was thusly smothered. That is what we suffer under now.

It is therefore not the superiority of our adversaries that ushered in the triumph of a one-dimensional war game replacing a robust geostrategic simulation in a multipolar world. The forces of democracy had no desire to dominate and were willing to live in peace with disparate groups. Nay, it was the presumption that it is necessary to 'win' a game that supposedly does not end that has brought on this malaise.

I invite you all to review the Charter of the League of Free Nations below for you to see what is needed to arrest this process -- and what Andromeda partcipated in destroying. For now.
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PostSubject: Re: Ephriam has summoned me   Wed Aug 06, 2008 12:49 am

Charter of the League of Free Nations
We are a confederation of individual nations, small groups and alliances that pledge to not engage in unprovoked warfare of any kind upon any nation, regardless of affiliation status. Participation is voluntary; partake of resources and contribute as you see fit. This is also a central place where such groups can gather and communicate freely w/o risk of being attacked or banned from the game.

There is no obligation with respect to mutual defense or economic support, but given that we are volunteers, help will tend to be in proportion to participation. Individuals and groups should pursue separate defense or aid treaties if they wish to establish formal ties. Endorsing alliances are encouraged to watch for new wars involving each other and use this place for central coordination.

We pledge to adhere to the following principles:

Unprovoked Warfare – Militaries will be used for defense of selves and others only. We will not perpetrate wars for purposes of plunder, conquest, eliminating rivals, quashing contrary views, boredom, sport, etc. upon anyone, be they aligned or not. We are essentially offering a unilateral Non-Aggression Pact with the entire world. This prohibition does not preclude the pre-emptive use of military force, but only addresses the reasons for resorting to violence.

Proportionate Response – Provocations will be dealt with in a manner that is consistent, proportional and appropriate. We will not escalate to military action simply because the offending party belongs to a smaller group. For example, we will not impose excessive in-game punishments for OOC comments in a private chat. The line between IC/OOC will be respected at all times unless the comments are of a threatening, cruel or obscene nature.

Collective Punishment – Only the guilty party should be punished for an action and the punishment should be proportional. First, there must be definitive proof of an offense that the community at large would readily recognize as legitimate -- such as objectively provable espionage or credibly threatening statements. [A 900 strength nation saying "I gonna n00k ya" or annoying/insulting comments are NOT cassus belli.]
    If it is clear that the rank and file of a given alliance could not possibly have known of the offense, much less have been party to it, the rest of the alliance should not be attacked. The rank-and-file should be given an opportunity to weigh in as to whether they defend the offense or not. Denying that the offense occurred due to a lack of proof is not cassus belli. We do not expect anyone to take our word for anything when it comes to justifying military force.

    If however it is deemed that the entire alliance is likely to counter-strike in defense of the minority who committed the offense, an alliance-wide attack may be justifiable.
Perma ZI – We will decide to essentially deny someone from playing the game only for a very good reason: If the individual has proven through actions that he is a danger to everyone, such as indiscriminately attacking others while going out with a bang. In such cases, they should be put into anarchy, deprived of troops and kept that way so they may not be able to declare war upon anyone else. We will not presume to drive people away from Planet Bob merely because we find them annoying.
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Valkan

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PostSubject: Re: Ephriam has summoned me   Wed Aug 06, 2008 1:08 am

I'm sorry, but although that charter is somewhat good, its rather boring. Meaning it's limiting the main basis of this game, war.
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walford

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PostSubject: Re: Ephriam has summoned me   Wed Aug 06, 2008 2:00 am

Valkan wrote:
I'm sorry, but although that charter is somewhat good, its rather boring. Meaning it's limiting the main basis of this game, war.
1. You might find the U.S. Constitution boring also; I don't recommend you bother with it.
2. At one time the main basis of Cyber Nations was not the game; it was diplomacy and rhetoric. War was a risk then in a multipolar world. A one-dimensional war game is only going to appeal to a much more narrow demographic -- teenaged boys who like message boards with light-colored text on a dark background.

There are plenty of other war games out there that have much kewler graphics if that is what you're interested in. The rest of us would like to have our geostrategic simulation back and look forward to the time when you decide that all of the lulz have been exhausted here and move on like the locusts you are.
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Valkan

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PostSubject: Re: Ephriam has summoned me   Wed Aug 06, 2008 2:31 am

1. The American Constitution "fails" just like majority of braindead inhabitants that occupy said country; mostly because its do as I say, not as I do. But really thats besides the point, please don't try to compare an online game (nation simulation or not), to real life polictics and demographics, it just doesn't work.

2. I couldn't care less about the "lulz" what ever the hell that even means, although I do like to enjoy the game that I spend so much time on, if that has any relevance.

3. Maybe you should take your own advise and move on. Because to me, it seems like most of the locusts have already left.


Also, don't get nasty, there is really no need for it.
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PostSubject: Re: Ephriam has summoned me   Wed Aug 06, 2008 3:31 am

He has a right to be nasty to us, frankly. I won't ask for a nice dicussion because it's not going to happen.
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PostSubject: Re: Ephriam has summoned me   Wed Aug 06, 2008 3:33 am

I'm so glad to hear that you enjoy the game, but your group made it so others who were no threat to you could not. They were driven away from the community at large and from each other because your leadership could not abide leaving others to enjoy as they see fit.

This blurred the line into OOC. Between your group and others, people whom I considered friends and even family are gone. Forgive me for being bitter about that.

And therefore the last thing that I will do is reward nihilistic sociopathic behavior by bending to your will.
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PostSubject: Re: Ephriam has summoned me   Wed Aug 06, 2008 3:35 am

We're not asking you too. I honestly just wanted to talk. Personally, I wanted to speak with you on an OOC level as Duncan King has spoken for your amazing OOC personality. You have every right to be pissed at us. Anyone who is attacked by another group has a right to be angry, regardless of the circumstances.
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Valkan

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PostSubject: Re: Ephriam has summoned me   Wed Aug 06, 2008 3:36 am

Us =/= me. I've been nothing but nice to the fellow. But trying to class me in such a group is rather offending. It's kinda like a "no u" argument.
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PostSubject: Re: Ephriam has summoned me   Wed Aug 06, 2008 3:48 am

Class you in that group? You are a member of it.

Consider if you lived in a village and 3/4 of them were wiped out by several gangs of thugs -- mostly to punish them for associating with you -- then one of their leaders offers half-hearted regret and invites you for an "OOC chat."

We don't become angry at everyone attacks us; we fight back and send them on their way, hopefully the wiser. All too often however, as soon as they recover, they resume victimizing others. Perhaps all they got out of it was to be more careful about choosing their victims.

I don't mind that other people enjoy the game in different ways than us. We were never trying to force anyone to play the game our way; we were only trying to secure a pocket of sovereignty for ourselves and were willing to defend it or perish.

You have only succeeded in creating enemies where you previously had none.
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Valkan

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PostSubject: Re: Ephriam has summoned me   Wed Aug 06, 2008 3:53 am

Funny how I've had this nation for 142 days and I've been to war once, that was in a war against HotU for trying to recruit members from a friends alliance. Neither do I remember sanctioning any wars against any nations of LoFN or unaligneds.
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